Vignette Prizes!

[Jasmine]

Alrighty, Althanians, here's the deal, in order to try to encourage you to get more involved in the Vignettes, I'm considering the idea of offering special prizes once or maybe twice a year. What I'd like to know from you is whether you like this idea and what you would like more of: exp/gold or items. Please feel free to share your thoughts below and not just vote. :)

Also the exact method for deciding winners is still in process, so feel free to make a suggestion of whether it should be points based (1st place gets 4, 2nd gets 3, 3rd gets 2 and most points wins) or just simple number of wins. Or maybe a different system entirely. I want ya'll to LIKE doing vignettes, so help me out and tell me what you'd like!

[orphans]

puppies!!












edit: in all seriousness, mmm.... exp pokels.

[SirArtemis]

You could always make a mini shop with the points system. Like we have GP for being used in bazaar transactions, why not have points for participating in vignettes and ALSO add maybe a point for "top contributor" in the writing workshops, and then they can use those points for special unique items that are similar to those auction house items we used to have.

Think of it like tickets at those old adventure land/chuckie cheese like places where you play games, earn tickets and get cool prizes. Wee

[Scoundrel]

In terms of long term prizes, would it be possible that each time someone completes and wins a vignette they gain a 3-4-5% exp multiplier for the next month?

[Amber Eyes]

I think if you go off of a point system it would be better to receive 1 point for participating and then 5, 4, and 3 respectively for winning. Sometimes you read the other Vignettes and know you can't top them so you don't bother. That would at least give everyone something for spending the time, whereas now it isn't worth it if you don't think you'll win. I agree that we should be able to spend those points even if we don't have the most. Maybe do something special when you reach 10 or 20...I dunno, I'm sure we can collectively come up with something cool.

[Vigil]

Up the experience rewards to something more substantial. 10% of a level is a bit negligible. Upping it to 25-30% would attract more participants. Only the winner gets this award, and a player cannot win a vignette more then once every three to four months.

Keeps people from getting crazy with it, but gives a bit more to be desired when writing these.

[Lillith]

I put a lot of effort into Lillith's latest, 50 or so xp was not a worth while reward, even though I really enjoyed writing it.

A point for prize trade type affair would work better for me personally.

Though I'll take part regardless.

[orphans]

Truth be told, I pick and choose what I think could become canon to my character. What Vigil suggested I think is workable or at least can be compromised with or something.

[Sagequeen]

Points system sounds good. Or, let the winner simply choose among exp, exp modifier, or gold. Naturally the exact amounts would be announced at the start of the contest.

:D

[Caden Law]

EXP is a sexy enough prize.

[Hysteria]

EXP!

Gold isn't much use, as you can only buy items which then are counted with the strength of your character and subtract from your possible skills. Hence, item prizes are also not much use either.

EDIT:
You could make a Vignette achievement to go with the XP one.

[SirArtemis]

I have a few ideas for how to change the reward mechanism for participation and winners. Also, the experience is calculated by the total amount of experience the individual needed to go from current level to next. So for me, at level 3, I need 5000 experience to reach level 4, and that is what my experience would be calculated from.



OPTION A

FIRST: 15% total experience required to reach next level AND 150gp
SECOND: 10% total experience required to reach next level AND 100gp
THIRD: 5% total experience required to reach next level AND 50gp

ALL OTHER PARTICIPANTS: 5% total experience required to reach next level



OPTION B

FIRST: 15% total experience required to reach next level AND 100gp
SECOND: 10% total experience required to reach next level AND 75gp
THIRD: 5% total experience required to reach next level AND 50gp

ALL OTHER PARTICIPANTS: 5% total experience required to reach next level



OPTION C (my favorite)

FIRST: 10% total experience required to reach next level AND 150gp
SECOND: 10% total experience required to reach next level AND 100gp
THIRD: 10% total experience required to reach next level AND 50gp

ALL OTHER PARTICIPANTS: 5% total experience required to reach next level

[Hallow]

I am strongly opposed to a competition awarding all competitors 5%.

I think there should be 3rd, 2nd and 1st place prizes at 10%, 5% and 3% of experience for next level.

These brackets should then be adjusted to 1st and 2nd without 3rd place if there are 5 or less entrants and 1st only if 3 etc.

[Vigil]

20-35% for the winner is adequete and will attract people. If you want to stand around and whittle down the rewards until they aren't worth anything in the spirit of compromise, then the entire point of this discussion is really moot.

Award substantial experience as a prize. Make sure a person can't win more then once every couple of months or even not win another vignette while at the same level. It gives people an opportunity to win something that could finish out a level and be considered more of a use. 10% experience is insubstantial and anything less is just insulting. Unless you're making a dive for a tournament and need something in a hurry, gold isn't really of much use. And unless there's talk of cash prizes, the concentration of prize development should be on a common goal that everyone is trying to accomplish.

[SirArtemis]

Vigil, at level 3, if I got 500 experience for a SINGLE post, I feel that's pretty substantial when it comes to effort. That's 10%. I think it's a bit ridiculous to give 30% of my level, or 1500 experience, for a single post, unless you mean that just for the winner, and in that case, what do the losers get for putting in the effort?

[Letho]

I personally think that 10% is generous. Contest or not, once every couple of months or not, it's no good to equate a single post with an entire quest in terms of EXP rewards. I don't care how good of a post it is. I sincerely doubt anybody ever put as much effort in a single vignette as he did in a quest, even a simple one.

[Vigil]

I was under the impression under the old rules that all players in the vignette got a 10% bonus for participating. At least that's how it was when I did it a couple of years ago. If that's not the case, that makes the pot for the winner even more lucrative. As for the losers? If that's the case? Pat on the back, a few kinds words, I guess? Even if it was different back when I did it, I'm not a big fan of giving trophies to everybody. Its a competition. Either go big or go home.

As for the one post argument. Its insulting to do that. This is a competition, and in the spirit of competition you need to offer something substantial as a reward to participate. If people thought the vignette rewards were fine as is, this discussion wouldn't be happening. The reason why I think 20-35% of a level is more substantial and a more adequete prize is because it will draw people in who are looking to finish their levels when in between quests. You are more likely to level up off the back of a vignette you won 20-35% experience from then say 10%. If it were the other way around and there were more cases of people being within ten percent of their next level, I'd be in agreement that that kind of reward is fine. But it isn't the case.

However, if you feel minimalism is the best approach to developing prizes and cultivating competition, I disagree with you. There is one vignette a month. There are twelve months in a year. Its a pretty fair argument to make that the same person shouldn't winning more then a couple vignettes in the same calender year. Especially if the experience prizes are upped. If that's the case, well, as I said earlier;

Clarify in the rules that you can only win once in the same level OR only once every 3-4 months to stagger the competition and allow everyone a better chance at winning the competition rather then allowing just the stronger writers to bulldog it whenever they're looking to level up.

[orphans]

I'm inclined to agree with Vigil on this one.

The added part of being able to win once every level or once every 3 - 4 months should prevent abuse. That wouldn't mean the winner is barred from entering again immediately, but simply that they cannot win.

Correct me if my interpretation is wrong.

[SirArtemis]

Personally, I've always viewed vignettes more as a writing exercise that can be completely uncorrelated to the canon of your character and help you get the creative juices flowing. I've found that 5% of my level for spending maybe 30 minutes writing something out in a single post just for fun was a nice reward. I also think that 10-15% is INCREDIBLY generous for winning, and gives a good incentive, as long threads of good quality would net you maybe 20-25% of your level.

I found that the major challenge was trying to make a brief and concise post that isn't incredibly excessive while still addressing the topic at hand in my own and creative way. However, if you were to write a long and drawn out post that could be a standalone thread on its own, then go post it as a thread. The whole point is to receive a reward for entering a monthly writing competition that is whimsical and challenging. Why would you submit an entire thread as a post when you can submit it as a thread and get the proper reward for it?


As for winning once every few months, that makes it so that a person enters, wins, and then disappears. What incentive would they have for entering if they knew they couldn't win and you quite plainly said that the reward isn't worthwhile unless you CAN win? And is this massive experience reward just for the single winner? What about runners up?


Like I said, personally I think 10% is pretty substantial for a single post, and if the top 3 competitors all received that 10%, You'd have an incentive to write something of quality and try to make it to the top 3.

[Vigil]

As for winning once every few months, that makes it so that a person enters, wins, and then disappears. What incentive would they have for entering if they knew they couldn't win and you quite plainly said that the reward isn't worthwhile unless you CAN win? And is this massive experience reward just for the single winner? What about runners up?


Like I said, personally I think 10% is pretty substantial for a single post, and if the top 3 competitors all received that 10%, You'd have an incentive to write something of quality and try to make it to the top 3.


I was under the impression under the old rules that all players in the vignette got a 10% bonus for participating. At least that's how it was when I did it a couple of years ago. If that's not the case, that makes the pot for the winner even more lucrative. As for the losers? If that's the case? Pat on the back, a few kinds words, I guess? Even if it was different back when I did it, I'm not a big fan of giving trophies to everybody. Its a competition. Either go big or go home.

This.

[SirArtemis]

Okay, and what in the flying muffin tops are you going to do in order to give people the incentive to keep fucking participating when they get their asses handed to them by a rotation of four or five incredible writers who cycle through the vignetttes shitting on everyone and taking the top prize?

Nothing. You will give them nothing. And the writers who are new or are still learning will also learn to not fucking bother, and you will destroy participation by shitting on the little guy.

[Vigil]

There are twelve potential winners every year. Its an exercise in writing something concise and to the letter of the prompt provided. If you don't win the first time, that means you have something to learn from so you can do better next time.

I'm trying very hard to resist the old vein I used to tap when people begin to frustrate me, but you're making it very tempting. A competition is a competition. The argument of big vs. little guy in this context is moot. Its one post and you can always come back and try again if you don't win the first time. I never really understood why people need to have their dicks sucked after having lost at something. Writing is a practical and learned skill. And any skill takes time, practice and effort to develop and become adept at. If you want handed something because someone was better than you at something, you have no incentive to stride for more then mediocrity unless you have any sort of determination or ambition to begin with.

But, I digress. What I suggested a week ago was merely that, a suggestion. Take it or leave it. I just hate watching shit like this get butchered through unnecessary compromise that serves really no purpose other then to assauge the egos of members here who still believe some semblence of democracy exists here.

[SirArtemis]

Competition with only one winner leaves one person feeling good and everyone else feeling like failures. That's not an environment that I support. To put in your effort and receive nothing in return is something that most people would never participate in, and only do so with the chance of large reward.

However, one person's victory, that may or may not mean much to them, leaving everyone else demoralized, is an inefficient means to produce motivation in people. One must succeed once in a while in order to continue to pursue their desires. Otherwise, if you continue to lose, most people will generally stop trying. How many people would look at being paired in the serenti with someone who is skilled and just walk away from the tournament and not bother trying? The same could happen in the vignette if someone posts something so good that others don't even bother trying, making the victory even easier.

In your system, the only reason one would want to win is to take more for themselves and leave less for the others, a very selfish and greedy notion that destroys any semblance of trust or camaraderie. Instead, you breed contempt and anger toward one another, and that is not a "community" as we try to establish on Althanas. At least that's not the message I've gotten.

If every participant is rewarded for their efforts to a degree, with a reward that is still pleasant though not extreme, say 5%, then they at least walk away with something as compensation for their time and effort. That way, even if the victor receives a better reward than the others, they do not feel shortchanged and can be supportive of that individual and congratulate them in a sense of friendly competition. With three winners, who all receive equal experience rewards and different currency rewards, it gives people more chance to win and thus motivate them to try, because even if they don't think they can reach first place, second or third is still something to aim for.

I do not approve of an all or nothing single winner approach.

[Vigil]

Its my job to motivate and develop people through team building and individual development. And I can tell you, Artemis, that you're full of shit. If you think losing in a vignette is demoralizing enough that you need to stop trying and give up, then you need to re-evaluate what you're doing this for. I'm all for backing people up and motivating people to exceed and do better, but I can't do anything for people who give up and sulk. If this is giving you flashbacks of horrors of playing teeball with your dad as a coach when you were six, then I apologize. But I have a hard time garnering respect for those who can't dig within themselves and try to overcome their weaknesses and better them.

The nature of competition is to build comraderie, yes, but in a competition there are also winners and there are losers. If losing in a one-post competition to somebody makes you question whether you can even hack it as a writer, then I believe you have bigger problems then arguing with me over the nature and ethics of propriety in competition.

EDIT: Anyway. This is a pointless sidebar conversation to the overall discussion. I apologize for letting my views of an entirely unrelated issue cloud my judgment in even letting you continue this pointless train of thought. I reaffirm my position and stand by my suggestion earlier. More substantial experience rewards will draw more people to vignettes, regardless of the fine print that will need to be implemented to support it.

20-35%.

[SirArtemis]

It's not questioning my potential, it's questioning where I stand as a writer. Some people are going to be better than others, and if a person invests themselves heavily into a vignette post, what's to say that that person loses after days of touching up and another writer pumps something out in 30 minutes and one-ups them? I don't know who taught you competition builds camaraderie. That's only for the team, and there are no teams in a vignette. There is only those left standing in the aftermath.

This has nothing to do with me. I don't care about competition, and I don't care about winning. I do this to participate and to improve myself. I do writing workshops to help others as well and to get the experience rewards for my time, hoping others find my feedback helpful. I entered the Serenti to be fodder and make sure the tournament would surpass 32 competitors. I write vignettes as an exercise. However, that doesn't change the fact that others like me who don't do this for the competition would enjoy something for their participation.

[Letho]

Vigil, you're out of line regardless of your bland apology. If you can't argue your point without insulting people, I'll see to it that you don't argue it at all.

[Sagequeen]

I would add this as far as rewards go: it's human nature to want to see a return on time spent. Also, please understand my angle is getting people involved in vignettes and bettering themselves through more writing via prompt.

When I write a thread, I know I will submit it and receive experience. The amount I'll get I don't know, but I know I'm not treading water, that my efforts will yield *something* in the form of a reward. Thus, it is worth my time and effort to do, because my character will grow and change, opening levels of possibilities for me to explore.

If I write a vignette, I don't have that same guarantee. If this were for a million dollar prize, be damn sure I'd write my heart out at the risk of coming up empty handed. That is where I get Vigil's argument. But - this isn't a million dollar contest. It's either I win and get some exp for my hobby - or lose and have wasted time when I could have spent my energy more efficiently working threads for judging.

Don't get me wrong - I love the concept of vignettes! It should be promoted; to do so, imho, it should be worthwhile to take part. My simple suggestion is a first prize and an honorable mention. The first prize gets the generous reward. Honorable mention gets half that. Since I don't want to see crap writing here just for the sake of exp, the vignette judge(s) may deem the threads worthy or not, and those worthy receive a small exp reward. Since there will only be twelve of these per year, it could be a static number equal to what an average full thread would award.

Time is a most precious commodity. For me, I will spend it where it matters most. I readily admit that might include writing an unwinnable vignette thread because I was particularly inspired to do so and think I will grow in the process, but many times I will spend my time where the greatest reward may be garnered. Is that not the smart thing to do?

+++++++++++++++++++

This is off the point, but it'd be nice for the community to vote on the coming month's vignette. That way, you are sure to have more inspired and active people posting. At least I think so.

<3 Sage

[Silence Sei]

Vigil, you're out of line regardless of your bland apology. If you can't argue your point without insulting people, I'll see to it that you don't argue it at all.

Letho, saying such a thing to Vigil when Artie started the whole thing with swearing left and right which was obviously written with contempt is not fair. If you're going to reprimand Vigil, you need to reprimand Artie as well.

[SirArtemis]

I wasn't swearing at vigil, I was swearing at the notion of no one else mattering except the winner, and I tried to explain the reasoning behind that. If it becomes a winner take all kind of event, I may not even participate because I'm not the competitive type.


EDIT: Look, I really REALLY hate the mentality of "second place is first loser." That's just blatantly disrespectful to all of the hard work, time, effort, personal sacrifice and skill it takes in order to perform well, and just because someone outperformed you, objectively or subjectively, that leaves you with nothing but the notion of "maybe next time." That's not going to motivate people at all. Especially if they end up competing multiple times, working hard to win, and get beat potentially by posts that they did not feel were better than their own. This is a vignette, not an athletic event. There isn't a scoreboard, it's just a single judge who makes the call, not to mention that there are no right or wrong ways of playing this game. I just cannot understand why it is reasonable to believe that people would invest themselves when there is never any return for that effort.

[Vigil]

Vigil, you're out of line regardless of your bland apology. If you can't argue your point without insulting people, I'll see to it that you don't argue it at all.


Letho, saying such a thing to Vigil when Artie started the whole thing with swearing left and right which was obviously written with contempt is not fair. If you're going to reprimand Vigil, you need to reprimand Artie as well.

Thanks for the backing, but it isn't necessary. And lets not start filling his head with delusions of grandeur and give Letho the idea he needs to waltz around as town sheriff. You're not intimidating me, so save the John Wayne act.

Anyway, I came off with a lot more salt then I intended, and I apologize. Soft or not, Boris didn't deserve having my views shoved down his throat. The query of competition really has no place here, and I'm not going to indulge it any further. Opinion still stands, but that's about all I'm interested in saying.

[Jasmine]

Boys, boys, you're both pretty so hush up and play nice... or else *scowl*

On to the actual topic, thank you everyone for your input. I'm working out a way for Vignettes to be a little more worthwhile. You will need to be patient with me as I figure things out. Rest assured I will let everyone know when I've decided on something.

That said, unless you have a suggestion to make about rewards being given (not whether or not they should be there or who gets them), kindly refrain from posting stuff that will only serve to hype up other people and/or create another "discussion." Thanks you.

[Duffy]

I think the main point to consider is less the topic of rewards, more, what will the vignettes become.

By that I mean, do you want it to be a Vignette Contest, in which case, Artemis is sadly on the wrong soap box (because a content implies winners and losers).

Alternatively, do you want it to be a feature where everyone benefits and it simply serves as a writing distraction to keep people entertained (and thus the smaller rewards for everyone would be more appropriate).

I am assuming you're aiming for the former and not the latter.

That said, I strongly feel a first place prize should reflect that it is in fact a first place prize. Either make it large, with no runner up prizes, or make it top 3, with a gold contribution for everyone that takes place but doesn't rank.

To ensure fairness and that nobody clean sweeps every month, add word limits or other conditions or brief details to the theme. 500 one month, 2000 the next, must include X list of lines another. Diversify it every month and really jazz up the creativity needed so that even 'veterans' struggle. This gives a chance to everyone.

[SirArtemis]

Duffy has summed it up perfectly. I prefer the latter, and surely Vigil prefers the first. I just don't like competitions personally.

[SirArtemis]

Okay, after cooling off and looking at everything again, with Orphans via skype, I think I could come to terms with something along the lines of what Vigil was saying. What if we did something like this?


Winner: 20% of total experience needed to level and 150gp
Runner up: 10% of total experience to needed to level and 50gp

All participants who the judge deems contributed a legitimate effort into the vignette but did not win, 3% of total experience to level.

Winner cannot win or receive the runner up position for the following three vignettes.

Runner up can continue to achieve the runner up position while striving to win.




What do you think?

[Atzar]

Why can't the writer of the best vignette of one month be the writer of the best vignette for the next month? That seems like a needless restriction. I won't support anything built to eliminate the best writer from participation for months at a time, or even at all.

[Jasmine]

I appreciate the effort to come up with solutions. However,there are few things that I'm going to be adamant about that you need to take into consideration

1. I absolutely refuse to bar anyone from winning for any reason, no matter how many times they've won in the past.
2. On EXP, I will not lower EXP given below what it is now (5%). I am also not going to go as high 20%.
3. Everyone will get something. Even the crappiest quests full to the brim of errors still get something. True a vignette may not be a lot of work in comparison to a quest or battle, but it is still RP work and should be rewarded at least somewhat.


I am considering eliminating 3rd place and having only first and second. First and second would get 15% and 10% EXP needed, everyone else will get the usual 5%. Thoughts on this idea?


Also, keep in mind that this is not going to be solely my decision. I will have to approve a final thing through those higher than me. (just a little food for thought)

[Hysteria]

I am considering eliminating 3rd place and having only first and second. First and second would get 15% and 10% EXP needed, everyone else will get the usual 5%. Thoughts on this idea?

I like it. While there have been some other good points, I think two 'Winners' and a small reward for participating is the way to go.

I think it might be a good idea to just clarify the term 'Percentage needed to level up'. I think it should be the total percentage gap between the start of the level the character is on, and the next. So for 5%:

Level 0: 100
Level 1: 150
Level 2: 200
Level 3: 250
Level 4: 300
Level 5: 350
etc

It seems unnecessary to base the calculation on the amount left between the person's current exp amount and the next level.

That's really my only beef.

[Elrundir]

I like it. While there have been some other good points, I think two 'Winners' and a small reward for participating is the way to go.

I think it might be a good idea to just clarify the term 'Percentage needed to level up'. I think it should be the total percentage gap between the start of the level the character is on, and the next. So for 5%:

Level 0: 100
Level 1: 150
Level 2: 200
Level 3: 250
Level 4: 300
Level 5: 350
etc

It seems unnecessary to base the calculation on the amount left between the person's current exp amount and the next level.

That's really my only beef.
As far as I know, that is indeed the way it's to be calculated. :)

[SirArtemis]

That is correct Hysteria, and Elrundir.

[Jasmine]

Thank you all for your suggestions and contributions. I have submitted a final idea for approval and hopefully I will be announcing it very soon. :)

[Hysteria]

As far as I know, that is indeed the way it's to be calculated. :)

I was jibbed in one of my vignettes T.T

But any who, consensus!